#65: Technologies impact on access to justice with Bridget Mary McCormick
/In today's episode, we embark on an enlightening conversation with Bridget Mary McCormack, exploring the transformative potential of technology in the courtroom, its impact on underserved communities, and the lessons attorneys can learn to better serve their clients. Bridget led the court in embracing technology and its transformative potential during her tenure as Chief Justice of the Michigan Supreme Court. Get ready for a thought-provoking episode filled with insights and inspiration.
Join Bridget Mary McCormack and the tech-savvy lawyer in an engaging conversation about lessons learned by lawyers post covid and their use of technology to help the underserved!
Bridget is now the President and CEO of the American Arbitration Association International Centre for Dispute Resolution. With a remarkable career in the legal field, Bridget has been at the forefront of championing innovation and technology to improve access to justice. As a New York University Law School graduate, she began her legal career in New York City before joining the faculty at Yale Law School and later the University of Michigan Law School. Her dedication to the legal profession is evident through her various appointments and roles, including serving on The American Law Institute, the National Commission on Forensic Science, and the Michigan Judicial Council. Moreover, Bridget's work extends beyond the courtroom, as she actively contributes to legal education and publication efforts. As an Editor of the American Bar Association's prestigious Litigation Journal, she continues to shape and influence the legal landscape.
Join Bridget and me as we discuss the following three questions and more!
What are the three biggest takeaways the courts have learned from technology during COVID?
What are three ways technology has helped the underserved?
Bonus Question! What are three things that lawyers can learn about serving underserved population segments in addition to their existing clientele?What are the three most common mistakes attorneys and the public make with using technology in the courtroom?
In our conversation, we cover:
[00:54] Tech Setup on the Go: A Window into Bridget's Digital Arsenal
[12:40] Revolutionizing the Courts: Unveiling the Transformative Power of Technology
[16:19] The Unforeseen Benefits: Witness Comfort and Safety in Virtual Hearings
[20:12] Transforming Access to Justice: Empowering the Underserved through Technology
[21:42] Empowering Change: Equipping Attorneys to Serve the Underserved
[22:36] Democratizing Legal Solutions: Embracing DIY Platforms in Access to Justice Solutions
[23:19] Unleashing the Potential: Three Tools for a Transformed Legal Landscape
[27:27] Navigating the Technological Terrain: Common Mistakes in the Courtroom
Resources:
Connect with Bridget:
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/bridget-mary-mccormack-26700b30/
Email: mccormackb@adr.org
Hardware mentioned in the conversation:
Lenovo ThinkPad: lenovo.com/lk/en/laptops/thinkpad/c/THINKPAD
Logitech 4K webcam: logitech.com/en-us/products/webcams/brio-4k-hdr-webcam.html
Blue Yeti microphone: logitechg.com/en-us/products/streaming-gear/yeti-premium-usb-microphone
Shure MV7 microphone: shure.com/en-US/products/microphones/mv7?variant=MV7-K
Bose Aviation Headsets: bose.com/en_us/products/headphones/aviation_headsets.html
Software and Apps mentioned in the conversation:
Overcast: overcast.fm/
Hello Divorce: hellodivorce.com/
* To “MacGyver something” according to ChatGTP 4: a common slang term, derived from the title character of a popular American TV series called "MacGyver," which originally aired in the 1980s and was later rebooted.
MacGyver is a resourceful and clever fictional secret agent known for his ability to solve complex problems and escape dangerous situations using unconventional and makeshift solutions.
In the show, Angus MacGyver, portrayed by Richard Dean Anderson, was a resourceful and clever secret agent known for his ability to solve complex problems and escape dangerous situations using unconventional and makeshift solutions. He would often utilize everyday objects and his scientific knowledge to create devices or tools on the spot, allowing him to overcome obstacles in creative ways.
Therefore, when someone says they're going to "MacGyver" something, it means they are going to find a clever and inventive way to solve a problem using whatever materials or resources are available to them. It's a term that highlights ingenuity and resourcefulness in finding practical solutions to challenges.
Transcript:
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Episode 65, empowering the underserved technologies Impact on Access to Justice. My conversation with Bridget, Mary McCormick.
Bridget is President and c e o of the American Arbitration Association International Center for Dispute Resolution. She's also a strategic advisor to the future of the profession initiative at the University of Pennsylvania, Carey Law School until the end of 2022. Bridget was Chief Justice of the Michigan Supreme Court, a position her peers selected her for in January, 2019, after she served for six years as a justice while on the court, she championed innovation in the use of technology to improve access to justice.
Enjoy. Have you been enjoying the Tech Savvy Laura Page podcast? Consider giving us a [00:01:00] five star review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast feeds.
Bridget, welcome to the podcast.
Bridget McCormick: Thanks for having me. I'm
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: excited to be here. I appreciate you being here and to get things started,
Bridget's Current Tech Setup!
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: what is your current tech setup?
Bridget McCormick: Uh, well, I'm on the road right now. I'm in DC today. Oh, so I'm literally, yeah. I'm literally only on my laptop for this conversation. Fair enough.
It's better at home and in my office, at home. In my office, I have multiple screens. I use a Yeti mic. And I have better speakers, but we're gonna muddle through
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: today, aren't we? I think this is just working fantastic, by the way. You sound great. And if I may ask, what, well, let's start with what you have in front of you right now.
What is your current laptop? Oh, it's a Lenovo ThinkPad. So you're a Windows person, right? I
Bridget McCormick: am. I mean, I don't really have a choice. Well, every employer I've ever worked for has required me to be a Windows person, so
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Fair enough. Now, if you had worked with me, But
Bridget McCormick: well, so you, maybe you should have hired me.
You know, I know. I, [00:02:00] I don't remember getting an offer from you,
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: so I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Tell me what about what you have at home.
Bridget McCormick: I carry my laptop back and forth between home and I just dock it at home in my large screens. And I also be getting mic and better speakers, so I like to have a lot of screens and a better mic, especially for conversations like this.
So, I'm glad it sounds okay because it worries
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: me. Well, let me ask you, what kind of screens do you have at home? How many do you have? Oh, at
Bridget McCormick: home, I have two. They are enormous. Yeah, good question About exactly what size? I don't know. I probably should have done my homework and written all that down before I traveled, but there are two big, enormous screens.
And then obviously I can use my laptop screen for a third when I occasionally need that. And sometimes I do, especially sometimes when I'm having a conversation, it's nice to have the video screen in the middle and if I need, you know, yes, information on the sides. I like to have those screens on the sides, so, yeah.
Well,
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: if I may ask, when you were on the bench, did you have just one computer screen or did you have maybe one or two others? On
Bridget McCormick: the bench. When I [00:03:00] was in oral arguments, I just carried my laptop up to the bench, so just one screen. Okay. Sometimes I would also take my iPad if I knew I wanted to be looking at more than one thing.
Mm-hmm. So I might be looking at the briefs and also to, at the same time, you know, obviously could have multiple tabs, but in my office at the core, I had two large screens and would also dock my laptop to give myself a third. I've been using three screens for a long time. So how do you like
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: that iPad, windows,
Bridget McCormick: life?
How do I like having to use both? Sure. Or
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: compare and contrast, I guess a little bit. Not
Bridget McCormick: ideal. I think it's not ideal because there's just some functions that don't automate across the two systems. Maybe they'll get better and better, I don't know. But I've figured out how to MacGyver my way around it 'cause it's the world we live in and so I manage.
What do you
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: primarily use
Bridget McCormick: your iPad for? That is a great question. I use my iPad for just about everything except editing I or, or even writing. I don't do any of any serious writing or editing on my iPad. I don't like the. Functionality of [00:04:00] track changes on iPad, so that might just be a function of my age, having gotten used to writing on a bigger keyboard or writing in a Windows environment.
But I don't use it for drafting or editing. Everything else I use it for. I
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: love it for social consumption. It's nice to have just to be able to check emails every now and then. The keyboard. I have several. They're just not quite the same as full size keyboard. I agree. Yeah. And I have feeling, you and I are very fairly close in age and it's sort of, it's weird.
If I may ask, do you hand write out drafts or you
Bridget McCormick: just type it straight in? I don't hand write a thing. I don't even, I don't remember how to use a pen and paper. I'm just kidding. I do. I have a book that I keep a lot of handwritten notes, which are things. As I'm thinking of them, and I wanna not forget, and I have a whole system in my little book, okay.
But anything that I'm really composing or drafting for others, or even for myself, I'm keep keeping a memo about something I'm working on. I do that all with fingers and keys at this
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: point. Best class I took in high [00:05:00] school
Bridget McCormick: was typing. Do you know I never took typing. I mean, I type like. I type incredibly fast for somebody who never learned how to type.
It was a
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: class that I've used over and over again ever since I graduated high school, and quite frankly, when it came to doing papers, it was a lot easier in high school to do papers on a typewriter or even on it was a Mac plus. And at the time I took the bar some bars, I think they still haven't left, like the programs like the Examinator be used to take the bar.
You still had to either do it by handwriting in DC. Was one of the very few bars at the time that allowed for you to take it on a typewriter. So I took it on a typewriter, which saved my butt because I can't write that fast and my penmanship sucks. And, but that's another story. So we have, so what kind of iPad do you have?
I have
Bridget McCormick: the, I'm gonna sound not like a tech savvy person, the big one and the most recent version, so it's, oh, I'm guessing an iPad, two months.
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: iPad Pro. Oh wow. It's an iPad Pro. You guess M two chip, right? Yep. Yeah. And I'm sure that thing cooks, doesn't it?
Bridget McCormick: It's, yeah, [00:06:00] it's basically like having a extra computer, so
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: yeah.
They are amazing. I have the M one chip in mind. So it's, I mean, and quite frankly, there's a performance bond between what you have to what I have, but it's not so much that justifies me or anyone for that matter, getting the M two. But of course, if you've gotten the older chips, definitely get what you have, especially since that's, that's the way things are going.
And that being said though,
Bridget McCormick: a smartphone. Yeah, I have an iPhone. iPhone is actually, I, it's a 12. Okay. And it works. So. I don't, I use my phone for listening to things. I listen to books and podcasts a lot. When I'm walking, I occasionally have to talk on the phone. That's something that people still do.
Sometimes I call my 20 something kids just to annoy them 'cause they think calling is rude. So I like to have that. Oh, I, I didn't know that. Yeah. It's rude. It's rude to call people.
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: I didn't know that I.
Bridget McCormick: And, and I like to be able to quickly, I use it for anytime I have to check in for a flight [00:07:00] or a train or travel apps and sometimes email, but I don't really like to compose email on my phone.
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Do you have a, uh, smartwatch by chance? I do. Ah, and which one is it? Apple Watch. And
Bridget McCormick: is the Apple okay? I do like it. I like a lot. I mean, again, I probably maybe don't use all of the functions that I could use that I could get out of it, but. For the things that I do keep track of on it. I like it. Yeah.
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Yeah.
I have the Ultra, which is, oh, how do you like that? I think, I forget what Free me, I forgot what version Apple Watches. If you have the newest version and I have just a slightly upgraded version, but the Ultra
Bridget McCormick: mine, I don't do not,
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: but the Ultra has a bigger screen. It's twice as bright. And I absolutely love it.
One of the reasons why I love it is because of the bigger screen and things look a little bit bigger 'cause you know, my eyes are going as they say. And it's just fantastic to have. And like you said, it keeps track of all the things I wanna keep track of, [00:08:00] whether my exercising. Timers when I need it. My, I use Overcast for my podcast player and I can control that for my watch as well as my phone kind of pop into when I like pause or stop my overcast podcasts.
At home, I'm assuming, I'm gonna guess that you have a different
Bridget McCormick: webcam. I do. I don't always use my laptop if I use the webcam. I don't remember what new webcam. I have a completely new setup since I'm three months into a new job, and I don't remember what webcam I use to be honest Chance It is,
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: yes.
Can't remember. I can't remember the, yeah, my own webcam. They give great pictures, but any Logitech product is gonna give you a really good, clear picture. Pretty good. Yeah. And you said you had a Yeti. Which one is it? Oh,
Bridget McCormick: it is, that's funny. I didn't know. It's the blue one. Doesn't that sound
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: heavy [00:09:00] blue? Is that, no, I think that's, that's the one I used to broadcast on.
Oh, okay. So they have ensemble ice, which is like a little, uh, ball, uh, that's only unidirectional. And then they have, I think the Blue Yeti, which is what you have, which is something that I started it off with. That can be unidirectional, omni-directional, bidirectional and something else. Yeah. And that's actually great for beginning podcasters and just as an f y I, just to share with you, I also have him holding it up here, so if I disappear for a second, I have a.
Huh? The seven that I just picked up. Okay. And you like it? Oh, it's fantastic. You can tell the difference between going on the blue versus the shore. Now, one thing in particular is this is a unidirectional mic, so I can't like have, unless I'm passing back and forth, but you and I can't be in the same room.
Yeah. Unless I'm passing back and forth. But at the a b A tech show, I had the opportunity to do a podcast live with Kent and Bryce of University of Oklahoma. [00:10:00] And it, it was kind of fun in the sense, 'cause I never did a podcast with the person I'm interviewing in the same room. So that was just, we were both having Google 'cause he does everything remotely too.
And so I was able to turn on the bi-directional option on the mic and it worked perfectly. And actually the amazing thing is the room was really loud because of some sort of air conditioning unit and it didn't capture that at all. Interesting. Huh. Just as a quick share, do you have a pop filter on your mic?
Don't, that's a little fuzzy cover. I don't, do I need one? Yeah. I would suggest getting one. I find one on Amazon for like between 8, 8, 12. And what it does is it helps with the popping, like the pea and the
Bridget McCormick: breathing. Interesting. I did not know about that. Okay, great. I'm gonna get that
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: and make sure that you get one that fits your mic.
Yeah, because like you'll see like a lot the ones, the handheld mic. And sometimes you might get confused, right? So just make sure you get he'll prep much say in Amazon that it's for the Blue Yeti, I think you get like a choice of colors or you may end up getting like for bag of four [00:11:00] $8 change code. I haven't found a yellow one yet to match the blog.
I'm still working on. Yeah, yeah. Let's see. We cover, do you use any special headphones?
Bridget McCormick: I don't. When I'm. Doing video meetings like this? I do when I fly. And what do you use? I fly with Bose headphones. Oh, I Bose headphones. Yeah. I fly so much that I just am concerned about my hearing, honestly, from all that.
So I put my Bose headphones on. I don't want people to think I'm rude, but I have headphones on the whole flight. Are they noise canceling? I use AirPods. They are? Yeah. They're the noise canceling headphones. And I use 'em every time I fly. And only for that reason if I'm listening to a podcast. Right. I use AirPods.
I use AirPods.
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: The regular AirPods. Not the AirPods Pro. Not the pro. The pro, okay.
Bridget McCormick: Yeah. I like the AirPods Pro for walking around listening to a podcast. I don't like to walk around my neighborhood with the headphones on my head.
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Now one thing I gotta share with you and respectfully, you were kind enough to occasionally pause the recording 'cause.
Had a cough, which is okay. We're all human. Okay. And I'm hoping to show this to you. So I have this little [00:12:00] mute me button. Huh? Can you see that? Yeah. And if I have it hooked up correctly, I can just, and I click on it, it goes from green to red and it mutes this way. I always know when I'm muted. Yeah.
Presuming that all the technology's working correctly. Right, right, right. Pardon the interruption. I hope you're enjoying the Tech Savvy Lawyer page podcast. As much as I enjoy making them consider buying us a cup of coffee or two to help toray some of the production costs, thanks and enjoy. Well, excellent.
Let's get into the questions, if I may. Yeah.
Q1: What are the three biggest takeaways you think the courts have learned from technology during Covid?
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Question one. You made headway getting the Michigan Court acclimated to the pandemic with virtual technology. What are the three biggest takeaways you think the courts have learned from technology during Covid?
Bridget McCormick: Yeah, it's such an important question because I've said this a bunch of times, but the courts learned more in 18 months to three years, depending on how long you think about the pandemic's length than they had in about a century.
And some of the lessons maybe shouldn't have surprised us as much as they did, [00:13:00] but you of course, in a state like Michigan, which is geographically enormous, would remote proceeding, made a lot of sense before a somebody. Have to drive three hours for a 15 minute hearing. So in Michigan, we actually had, our judges all had Zoom licenses before we had a pandemic.
They weren't using them, but they had them. So it was an option. But what we learned that was the single most important lesson is that self-represented parties, which is an enormous number of parties in state courts, were far less likely to default if they had a remote option for appearing in court. That to me is a, is a fact from which it is impossible for courts to turn away that if you can better serve the people you serve who already are struggling because they can't afford lawyers, that obviously is something you're gonna have to keep in your processes going forward.
We learned, of course, that lawyers can do a whole lot more when they can make remote appearances. And we learned that certain witnesses or litigants [00:14:00] were able to be more open and more forthright on remote platforms than in courthouses, specifically kids. So judges in child custody, proceedings, and termination upon rights.
Proceedings reported regularly. Getting much better and more information out of kids in those proceedings when they were on remote platforms, which again, in retrospect makes a lot of sense, right? Because courtrooms are scary and imagine they're scary even for adults. Imagine how scary they would be for a kid who's already going through something.
Probably somewhat traumatic if their family is in court. But what's less traumatic for kids is talking to their phones because that is something they do fairly regularly. So judges would report. So I was never able to learn much from her when she would come to the courtroom. But now when I can talk to her and she's in her room, she wants to show me her homework, she wants to show me around her room.
And they were getting much better quality information from certain people in certain proceedings. So those are, there are [00:15:00] many more lessons you asked for three. Those are three, I think, important ones. Well,
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: let's, I'm gonna go back one step. I like to pull in the last two questions if I may. So you say that lawyers can get much more done.
And by the way, I wholeheartedly agree with you. So when I'd have to go into town and I live outside of DC I'd have to go in for hearings at the va. And of course you go to the hearings and the way the VA hearings work is it's first come, first go. So the, they set four or five hearings in the morning, four or five in the afternoon, you'd show up and you might get there, be the first one there.
You might be the fifth one there. It's a luck of the drop. But also, as you may know, in DC there is the commute. So it's like an hour and a half coming in for 15 mile drive and then an hour and a half, two hours coming back. So I can leave early, still take an hour and a half, find out I'm fifth, and then not leave until like one, two in the afternoon.
And of course traffic around here starts yesterday. And so I have been saving so much time, I've gotten so much more sleep. And for the veteran that I had the hearings [00:16:00] for, it's actually made it a lot easier on them 'cause they don't have to worry about traveling here. They don't have to worry about getting to somewhere.
They can just be at home. Get a nice corner and a nice backdrop and they're good to go. So, but my question to you is, does that save you as a judge
Bridget McCormick: more? No, it actually ends up being a little bit more time for judges. I, although I think there are efficiencies that just take a while to figure out what those, what the processes are to make sure you see them.
But you know, there is some staff time with setting up remote hearings that you don't have when you have a big cattle call. So I think the answer is that it, it actually can be more time for judges and court staff, but part of that is because the, they haven't yet had the time to figure out process simplification and ways to make their end of the process a little more efficient.
But there are some parts of it that, that, that will be more time consuming. So when a judge or her staff has to set a bunch of remote hearings in a [00:17:00] particular day, you have to set them for a certain time. You sometimes have to do tech checks or you sometimes have to help people when they first show up in the meeting with different strategizing around what, whatever technical issues come up.
You kind of need technology bailiffs instead of courtroom bailiffs, and that can end up taking a lot more time for judges and their staff. I, I think that's is what it is. I mean, yeah, judges sometimes prefer. A, an in-person cattle call because it's a lot more convenient for them. They get to just show up on the bench when they want to and call the cases in the order they want to, and finish when they want to.
And it's, the schedule revolves around them instead of around the litigants. And, but you know, the thing is the courts are for the people, not for the judges, so. Right. I don't have a.
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: There was a lawyer who called in for her virtual hearing from her bed and like, yeah, there was a video hearing and I [00:18:00] think she was still under the covers or something like that. Have you had something like that happen to you or to your colleagues? So I sat on,
Bridget McCormick: so I sat on the court of last resort on the Supreme Court.
We, nobody showed up for court in bed. They, they were quite professional. There were a lot even well into the pandemic that I had to show them where their mic was and where their camera was and, but still, that was fine. I got used to that. But I know the trial judges definitely had many litigants and some lawyers show up in in some kind of inappropriate way, and judges had to figure out how to manage that.
They managed inappropriateness in their courthouses too. So it's not really a new set of skills, it's just applying those skills to a different medium.
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: And your answer kind of bleeds into my question about your last answer, talking about that, the litigants and the witnesses, how they, a little bit more free to talk and a little more comfortable.
Now I remember an article, I think I blogged about it, where the judge was doing some sort of hearing regarding when the parties have to stay away from a, [00:19:00] what's, what is it called? When the parties have to stay away from
Bridget McCormick: a no contact order or something. I a no contact
order.
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Yeah. So when the, it was, I remember a case where it was a no contact order and the young lady was somewhere, presumably at home, but she could tell.
So,
And the judge realized, holy cow, they're in the same room. She was scared. She had her bailiff call the police and the guy was arrested. Have you come across?
Bridget McCormick: Yeah, tho those stories are out there. In any given case, especially a case where a judge might have concerns about a witness's safe, a judge always has the authority to have that particular hearing, hearing happen in court.
Right? So there are ways to manage those potential mishaps. And I, I, they're the exception, not the rule, but they're exception that there's a strategy for handling. Excellent.
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Let's move on to our second question.
Q2: What are three ways technology has helped the underserved?
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Access to justice has been an issue for decades. What are three ways technology has helped the [00:20:00] underserved?
Moreover, what are three things attorneys can learn about serving this segment of the population, let alone their current
Bridget McCormick: clients? Yeah, technology is gonna be a really important part of a breakthrough solution to what is really an access to justice crisis in this company. And the number of people who are navigating justice problems without lawyers is stunning.
And obviously, technology gives us some opportunity to scale some solutions that we can't scale. If the solutions are. Humans on a one-to-one service model, which is the model we learn in law school. But there have been long before the pandemic, there have been technology platforms that have been able to scale some solutions to getting people the information they need.
Sometimes even help. They need not in the, not usually in the form of a one-to-one service model, but. In a toolkit or the ability to find out what kind of information's gonna be re relevant if you're trying to deal with a particular legal problem. And those solutions have been around for a while. I [00:21:00] think that artificial inte, generative AI is, has the potential to actually really change that even more dramatically.
The kinds of solutions that have been around thanks to technology are now gonna be. Scalable, I think to agree. We don't fully understand it. Our human brains are not capable of understanding it. I think it's one of the most exciting parts of, and, and we'll see. Remind me the second part. You wanted to know what lawyers
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: so.
Can,
Q2.2: What are three things attorneys can learn about serving this segment of the population, let alone their current clients?
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: what can attorneys learn about serving , this segment of the population? So
Bridget McCormick: I think that if we think we can lawyer our way out of our civil justice crisis, and it is a civil justice crisis. We are unbelievably naive. We can't lawyer our way out of this problem.
So what I think lawyers need to learn is a bunch of skills that law schools don't yet teach. Lawyers need to learn design thinking. They need to learn how to collaborate with technologists and with. People in [00:22:00] communities who understand the way legal problems are impacting their neighbors and figure out some one to many solutions because the one to one-to-one solutions, that that is the model that we learn in law school isn't, is never gonna get us there.
What
do
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: you think about platforms like Hello Divorce, where it's a D I Y. Of course need more help you get an attorney.
Bridget McCormick: Yeah, I mean, I think those platforms are a critical part of a set of solutions. Mm-hmm. Justice Crisis, Michigan actually has, I think, one of the best self-help platforms. Nation, we, you can get a divorce and it, you just answer the questions and like, hell a divorce, it spits out the forms for you.
We'll file them for you. But we do it for every other civil justice problem as well. So it's an all service. Michigan legal help.org is a pretty amazing platform. I think they're great, but I think they're one tool in a what needs to be a really big toolbox to, to fully address the [00:23:00] scope
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: of the problem.
So if there were tools, Appear, what would they be?
Bridget McCormick: I think the first one would be, people other than lawyers empowered to help people with civil justice problems when you have a healthcare issue. I don't necessarily see a surgeon. Sometimes a physician's assistant is good enough. Sometimes a nurse practitioner is good enough.
I think I, I might get this slightly wrong, but I don't think so. I think 89% of healthcare workers are not MDs or dos. They are some other, they have some other license to help people with health issues. Of legal services workers are jds. Why don't we have, my first tool I want is a legal nurse practitioner, and then I want a legal physician's assistant.
Then I think I want. Personal AI legal assistant that's gonna be able to answer all of my questions and point me in the direction of solutions [00:24:00] if it isn't sufficient to help me with a particular legal problem. But sort of a first step. Personally personal. I want a lawyer in my pocket. I want everyone to have a lawyer in their pocket thanks to g.
Or maybe co-counsel. I don't know who can build that, but somebody should build that, give everybody the information and the tools. I mean, we desperately need to democratize law, and I do think there's a possibility of doing that and doing it far sooner than I ever thought was possible. So I think that's pretty exciting.
I think. Third tool I want is a better functioning democracy. There are a lot of problems that are showing up as legal problems that should have upstream policy solutions, the the debt collection dockets that are crippling our courts, but also crippling people in our communities. I, they never should have gotten that far.
Right. We should be solve, we should be solving those problems right far upstream from when they become legal emergencies. So those might have not, those might've been bigger tools than you had in mind. But that's my answer. Sticking into it. No, no. And
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: I'm gonna [00:25:00] go back, uh, two steps. One regarding like the legal nurse or the doctor lawyer.
It's funny, in the veterans benefits arena that I work in there, there are some nurses and doctors who. Got their j d or got certified to work. VA cases, VA benefits cases before the va? Yeah, usually because they've been disgusted by what they've seen in the VA process and how people aren't properly diagnosed, or they're clearly focused on the wrong issue, et cetera, so they are out there.
As a matter of fact, I remember in law school, one of my fellow students was a nurse who wanted to go to law, basically to help with elder care. Issues. But I may,
Bridget McCormick: I may not have been clear. I don't actually mean I need people who are nurses to go to law school. I mean, we should have people who don't have to go to law school who can help people with their civil justice problems.
Right. People other than lawyers, like people other than doctors can help people with their healthcare problems. People other than lawyers should be able to help people with their [00:26:00] civil justice
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: problems. And yeah, actually in the, going back to the VA realm there, you can become a certified. Representative by taking a certain test and studying for and not be a lawyer.
So I have to ask you about the elephant in the room. Okay? Is AI going to replace attorneys or the need for attorneys? No,
Bridget McCormick: it's not. AI is not gonna replace attorneys, but attorneys who use AI are gonna replace attorneys who don't use ai and that's gonna happen pretty quickly. I agree. Uh, there will be some boring lawyer work that AIS will do and lawyers probably won't ever have to do anymore, but I think that just opens up the possibility for the human lawyer work.
To be, to take up more of our days, which seems like a really good improvement.
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: I, I agree. I mean, can you, do you remember the first time you were able to use Save As from a prior brief and just remain, remove some of the analysis and you got your law, you got your general issues like thrown with maybe a little bit of an analysis and you were good to go?
And trust [00:27:00] me, I, I had some people look at me like, I witch doing voodoo
Q3: What are the three most common mistakes attorneys and the pro se public are making with their use of technology in the courtroom?
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: question. What are the three most common mistakes attorneys and the pro se public are making with their use of technology in the courtroom? That's a
Bridget McCormick: good question and probably one, it's better suited for a trial judge where technology is used in courtrooms a lot more regularly in the Michigan Supreme Court.
No one has ever used any technology, although I always found that a little interesting 'cause there definitely would be. Occasions for it. You can imagine wanting to blow up a statute if there's a, an issue of statutory construction, right? Having an oral argument in the Supreme Court, why not have a big screen where you can actually with a pointer or a highlighter, or you can actually point to whatever your argument is?
It's never happened. We do have a blind justice on the Michigan Supreme Court or we, I don't sit there anymore. Michigan Supreme Court does have a blind justice sitting there, so that causes some problems with any exhibits. But I don't know of any of my colleagues in Supreme Courts in other states that where anybody uses any technology and it again, [00:28:00] especially in statutory construction issues, I don't know why you wouldn't want to.
It feels like you might, but I dunno. In the trial courts, I bet there's just an enormous variance. I bet there's some lawyers using it really well and others. Using it really poorly and I just don't have access to that quite. 'cause I'm not in, I never sat in a trial
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: course, but I'm surprised that when attorneys are up there arguing before you that perhaps they don't have like a tablet or an an iPad where they're like, okay, on record page 3,205, it actually says, This, not that.
Bridget McCormick: Yeah. Honestly, I don't even, I guess sometimes I'll see an attorney with a computer or an iPad in the courtroom, but I've never seen one go to their iPad to find something in the record that somebody's asked about. Never seen that in 10 years sitting on the bench.
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Bridgette, again, I want to thank you for joining us.
Where can people find you?
Bridget McCormick: It's easiest to find me at the American Arbitration Association, McCormick B at adr.
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Excellent. I'll be sure to [00:29:00] have that in the show notes and of course some the stuff today. And again, I want to thank you.
Bridget McCormick: Have a great day. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, thanks for the conversation.
It was fun. My pleasure.
Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Thank you. Thank you for joining me on this episode of the Tech Savvy Lawyer Page podcast. Our next episode will be posted in about two weeks. If you have any ideas about a future episode, please contact me at Michael DJ at the Tech Savvy lawyer.page. Have a great day and happy lawyer.
