Whether you're a lawyer looking to start a podcast or just interested in the legal side of podcasting, this is an episode you won't want to miss. In this episode of The Tech-Savvy Lawyer.Page Podcast, we sit down with Gordon P. Firemark, The Podcast Lawyer™, to discuss the top three reasons lawyers should start a podcast, the legal issues they need to consider, and his favorite pieces of technology for podcast recording. As a pioneer in the field of legal podcasting, Gordon brings a wealth of experience and knowledge to the table. So Let's dive in!

Gordon P. Firemark, also known as The Podcast Lawyer™, is an attorney specializing in podcasting and new media. With over 25 years of experience in entertainment law, he provides legal counsel to podcasters, vloggers, and other online content creators on a wide range of issues, including copyright, trademark, and privacy concerns. Firemark is also a podcaster, hosting the "Entertainment Law Update" podcast, which provides a monthly summary of legal news affecting the entertainment industry. He is considered a leading expert in podcasting and is frequently invited to speak at industry events and conferences.

Join Gordon and me as we talk about the following three questions and more!

1. What are the top three reasons a lawyer would want to start a podcast?

2. What are the top three legal issues lawyers should consider when podcasting?

3. What are your top three favorite pieces of technology, whether hardware or software, that you use to make your podcast recordings?

Resources:

Connect with Gordon:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/gfiremark/
Website: gordonfiremark.com/
Podcast: Entertainment Law Update: entertainmentlawupdate.com/
Youtube: youtube.com/@gfiremark

Mentioned in the Podcast:

Podcast Guest Release: gordonfiremark.com/PodcastRelease

Equipment Mentioned in the Podcast:

Mac computer: apple.com/imac-24/
Mac Mini with the M1 chip: apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini
MacBook Pro: apple.com/macbook-pro/
MacBook Pro (2017 model): support.apple.com
Shure MV7 microphone: shure.com/en-US/products/microphones/mv7
Blue Yeti microphone: bluemic.com/en-us/products/yeti/
Rodecaster Pro mixer: rode.com/en/interfaces-and-mixers/rodecaster-series/rodecaster-pro
Sound pads: sonicacoustics.com/collections/soundproof-foam
Audio Technica ATR 2100: audio-technica.com/en-us/atr2100-usb
LG dual monitors: lg.com/uk/monitors
Logitech BRIO webcam (4k model): logitech.com/en-us/products/webcams/brio-4k
Canon M 50 mirrorless digital SLR camera: canon.co.uk/cameras/eos-m50
Source Audio headphones: point-sourceaudio.com
Apple AirPods Max: apple.com/airpods-max
Elgato key lights: elgato.com/en/key-light
LED strips: made-in-china.com/cs/hot-china-products/Strip_Led_Light
Octagonal/hexagonal felt panels for soundproofing: alibaba.com/product-detail/48-Colors-Soundproof-Foam-Espuma-Acoustic
Felt desk mat: grovemade.com/product/wool-felt-desk-pad
Flexi spot sit-stand desk: flexispot.co.uk/
iPhone 13 Pro: apple.com/si/iphone-13-pro/
Projector: benq.com/en-us/projector

Software and Services Mentioned in the Podcast:

Skype: skype.com/en
Zoom: zoom.us
Riverside.fm: riverside.fm
Logitech BRIO software: support.logi.com/hc/en-gb/articles/8076787990295-Download-Brio-500
Teleprompter: teleprompter.com

Transcript:

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Episode 59, podcasting in the Law. My conversation with Entertainment, law and Podcaster. Gordon Firemark

Gordon's an attorney and podcaster who helps artists, writers, producers, and directors achieve their dreams in the field of theater, film, television, and new media. Since his admission to practice in 1992, Gordon has focused his attention on providing sound, practical, legal, and strategic advice to his clients so they can make smart deals, grow their businesses, and do great things.

Gordon is the producer and host of the Entertainment Law Update a podcast for artists and professionals in the entertainment industries. He's also the author of the podcast Blog and New Media Producers Legal Survival Guide. Enjoy. Hey everyone. Just a quick shoutout before we start. Are you enjoying the Texa leader.page podcast?

Consider giving us a five-star review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast feeds. Also, consider buying us a cup of coffee or two from the link on our blog to help to phrase some of the production costs. Thanks and again, enjoy. Gordon, welcome to the podcast.

Gordon Firemark: Hey, Michael, great to be here.

Thanks for having me.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: I appreciate you being here.

Gordon's Current Tech Setup!

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: And to get things started, tell us what is your current tech setup?

Gordon Firemark: My tech setup is based around a Mac. I've been a MAC user for a while now. I always said when I, I've been in practice for 30 something years and I started out of COR on PCs and at one point my wife, who was a Mac user shortly after we met, was really encouraging me to get a Mac.

I'll never switch. I'll never switch. Well, I switched and uh, what was your first. What was your first uh, MacBook Pro? Maybe 2012, somewhere around there. Okay. Okay. And actually, no, it was probably a little earlier than that, but anyway, 2009 maybe. Okay. When I started my podcast, actually, I think I was already on a Mac, and so it's built around the Mac and a mics.

I'm currently using a sure M V seven microphone, which is a USB and xlr, so I can plug it into my mixer and whatever that mixer is, a roader. Okay. That allows me to record my show. The show that I do entertain a little update. We do live to drive. Okay? So we start the show. We start press record, press the music when it finished.

Mm-hmm. , we start talking, we finish the show, , press the music, and then out we go. Stop the recording, upload the file. Cool. Very little if any post-production is done. And then that's part of just having a streamlined fast workflow so we can get the episodes out and not eat up Lawyer time doing it. I, I gotta ask,

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: so I'm running off of a Blue Yeti now.

If I may ask, why would I want to, and I say this not accusatory, but as does, I wanna know that the details of why would I want to move from say, a Blue Yeti to your mic?

Gordon Firemark: You're asking the right guy. I'll tell you. Perfect. I was a sound guy before I went to law school, . Oh, okay. So excellent. There are two different sort of classes of microphones, and it really is the technology that goes into them. There are condenser microphones. Mm-hmm. use electricity to magnetize the coil that picks up the sound and then converts it into a different electrical signal That tends to be a more sensitive, more delicate kind of a sound.

And it tends to pick up a lot of room noise and background noise. And so the Boetti is a condenser microphone. Okay. The mic I'm using, and the mics that I generally recommend for podcasting are dynamic microphones, which don't require power in order to operate. They rely on the sound waves to fluctuate against a stand irregular magnet, and that generates the electrical current.

That becomes the, the sound that's recorded. It takes more amplification on the front end of that to get a really nice, robust sound. But the advantage is if you're not in a perfectly tuned soundproof room, right, you're not gonna pick up a lot of the little thing. Like right now, there's a fan going across the room from me and there's noise out in the rest of the house where I'm working, and we're not gonna hear most of that unless it gets really crazy loud.

on something like what you're using, you might be more prone to those kinds of things. So, okay. If you're a podcaster, if you're gonna be recording in your office at where there's hubub around, right? Unless you want to hear that Hubub, a dynamic mic is, is probably a better choice. Now, the Blue Yeti is a great microphone, don't get me wrong, but it does require some attention to what's going on around as well.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg:

Now, a moment ago, you mentioned that you had a roader processor.

Gordon Firemark: A Roader Pro is a multi-channel mix. and recording console. Okay. And it's put out by road, which is the maker of a lot of good quality microphones and other sound equipment. Mm-hmm. . What it allows me to do is when I record my show, which uses a Skype call for my co-host and we may bring in guests and things like that, is to have independent control of everybody's audio channel.

Okay. Plus we can press sound pads and have, cue the music and it records on board inside the mixing console as well. So it's all sort of a. I won't call it an all in one device, but it's a very versatile recording device. Before I have that, which it's only been a few years, uh, I. Separate mixers and sound cards and recording decks, and it was a, a ton of equipment in a rack sitting on my desk, and I was able to get rid of all that in favor of this one, one device.

It's a great tool if you're really serious about podcasting, I'll tell you nowadays when you have guests and things like that, there are a lot of great tools out there that use. Well, like we're recording on a Zoom call right now. Right now, zoom doesn't always have the best sound quality. It's pretty good.

There are others like it that are specifically designed for higher sound quality recordings, and it's possible to do a show with guests nowadays without any special outboard equipment.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: You're a former professional sound guy. Does the average attorney who wants to do his or her own podcast, do they need something as in depth as a broadcaster and a share mic, or is it so safe to say you could go with a Blue Yeti and be fine for the rest of your podcasting brewer?

I think a lot of

Gordon Firemark: people do this. Micron is not a particularly expensive micron. It's probably maybe double what the Yeti $115 or something like that. Yeah, I think it's like a hundred bucks now. But yeah, this is about a $250 microphone, so it's not a tremendous investment. Especially for lawyers who have little cash to invest.

And I just, frankly, I just think this is a great sounding microphone. That's why I chose it. I've played with lots of different mics because I'm a geek about that kind of stuff. And yeah, I'm not a huge fan of the Yeti, as

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: you can probably tell me. No worries. And to each throw on 'em, we're not here to judge anyone, but how much texture does the roader.

Enhance your overall podcasting

Gordon Firemark: though. What it does, it streamlines the workflow because I'm able to, everything is built in. Mm-hmm. , the recording happens on board there. It's not relying on the computer's processors to do the recording. Okay. It allows me to play the music in real time and mix the volume levels and things like that.

Again, it's, if I wasn't a sound guy, probably wouldn't have bothered to get into that kind of thing.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: I'm assuming the mic is more important than the mixer.

Gordon Firemark: Look, the microphone is the first place that you're capturing sound and doing anything with it. And like any technology really, if you put garbage in, you get garbage out.

If you put high quality in, you're better able to get high quality out. And so I think investing in a good, you don't have to spend tons of money, a good decent microphone that will do the job and reject that background noise. Wise investment and, and

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: I see that you like the Sure MV seven and I'll make sure that's in the show notes to everyone to take a look at.

Of course, I'll also have a link to the Blue Yeti and trust me, I'm looking at possibly upgrading. Yeah, and I'm gonna take what you said to

Gordon Firemark: heart. There's another mic I should tell you please about please. Somebody's just an entry level microphone for podcasting. They're, there are two microphones that fit this bill.

One is called the Audio Technica, A T r 2100. It also plugs into U S B or xlr, so you can grow with it and plug it into a mixer later. Okay. Nice quality sound, but I think it's about $80, maybe 75. Sometimes you find 'em on sale and it has a sort of a sibling made by a company called Samson, S A m s o N. Q2 U is the model.

And it also, same thing, it's it a dual, you USB or XLR tends to be a little louder of a microphone. So some people really like that and, and they both, you know, it's a kit. You buy the whole thing for under a hundred dollars and okay, you plug in in and you're good

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: to go. So all three of the mics we've talked about mm-hmm.

and I'm referring to the ones you've talked about the Sure. The Samsung and the Audio Technica. I heard that correctly. Yeah. Yeah. They're all usb, but can be transferred over to a.

Gordon Firemark: Yeah. Yeah, and they're all dynamic mics, so they're gonna do that background noise, rejection a little

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: better. Awesome. I learned something Newsday, and I appreciate.

So tell us what is your current computer?

Gordon Firemark: So I'm using a 2021 Mac Mini with the M one chip. It's not a super machine by any stretch of the imagination. I think I added up, I upgraded the memory to the 16 gigabytes of memory, but other than that, it's your basic Mac Mini for about a thousand dollars when I bought it.

And it's my office computer as well as my recording computer.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: And how many screens do you have, or what screens do

Gordon Firemark: you have? So I have two monitors. I technically, I have three because I'm actually talking to you using a teleprompter, which has a third monitor that is a clone of the second monitor on the system.

Gotcha. that way. I'm looking directly into the camera for when I do live streaming and those kinds of things, but Right. That's geeky extras, but the

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: But what are the two monitors you're using? And also tell us what the teleprompter is. Okay,

Gordon Firemark: so the two monitors that I'm using as dual monitors are from lg. I don't know the, year, the model number, but I picked it up. It's a 24 diagonal L C D. Ed screen. I got 'em at Costco for 125 bucks or something like that, and they're fine, pretty good. For purposes. I'm not doing a lot of technical photo editing and video stuff. Color correction really matters. And so it's a, a nice balance of price and quality for nice, big screens.

The teleprompter is a, gosh, I've had it for years. I don't remember the name of the maker, but there's a bunch of them. Originally it was designed to work with an iPad as the screen, and it's just, you know, cameras behind a mirror and you see what's on the screen and then read it a few. About a year ago, I bought a smaller little.

Flat panel monitor that fits in the place of the iPad. So I'm not having to dedicate my iPad to that. And so it's always connected, but like I said, that's geeky stuff, tech stuff. It's, that's, it's fun.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Um, but so does the teleprompter, does that have a cam in ?

Gordon Firemark: No, the camera actually sits on a mount behind the mirror.

Okay. Of the teleprompter. Okay. So what you have is a half silvered mirror, so it passes light. Pretty well through. And the, the lens is right behind the center of the mirror and the mirror is over the monitor that's laying flat, perpend, uh, flat parallel to my desk basically. Cool. And so what scrolls by on the monitor, scrolls by on the mirror and it's reversed, this little monitor I have.

Has a switch to create a mirror image and it makes it very easy to put some text on the screen and read it if I want to, or have an outline or just for these kind of calls to be able to look you right in the eye and communicate.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: What kind of camera are you using

Gordon Firemark: or webcam? So I was using up until very recently mm-hmm. I was using a, a Logitech Brio webcam. The, I think it's the 4K model. I don't even know. And it, yep, it

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: is the Brio is the 4k. I have it, I'm, we're talking on it right now.

Gordon Firemark: Yeah. Super clear, bright picture. Really good. Comes with some software. You can zoom in and out a little bit. Mm-hmm. and those kinds of things, and I love it, but.

I wanted to throw the background behind me out of focus a little bit. Okay. And the brio, because it's got such a small sensor and the, just the way the lenses and things work, it's not real good for that. And so be it. And again, being the geek that I am and having money, I guess, to spend on things, I went and bought a Canon M 50 mirrorless digital S l r and a Sigma 16 millimeter lens that has very wide aperture that lets you get that soft focus background and it has great autofocus.

So if I step away from my desk, right, right. It keeps me in focus and um, oh. Cause I do some teaching and other things that I, this, it's just a useful setup. Cool.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: I have some headphones on. Yep. What brands is that? Oh, let

Gordon Firemark: me think. I gotta take 'em off and look. I think these are from Source Audio. Okay. Or Status Audio, I think is the name of the company.

I don't know the model number, but again, I'm not doing such mission critical stuff that I needed to invest a tremendous amount of money in them. Comfort on my head. If we're wearing headphones for hours and hours in a day, it gets to be uncomfortable, right? If they're not really well-built. So these have a nice ear cushion and the sound quality's good.

And being a sound guy, I, I do care about the sound quality, but I'm not investing three, four, $500 in apparent headphones. Then we won't

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: talk about the Apple AirPod Max. Then I'm wearing, sorry, I had that, I couldn't remember the names. Is that what those are? Yeah, I got these when I was in Hawaii. I had planned, we had a trip to Hawaii.

I was planning on getting a pair and Apple's got this great 14 day turn policy. I figured I'd take it on the trip and try 'em out, and I just ran out the time and we get to Hawaii and I had no plans in going to the Apple store there, although I would've loved to just to be a geek. But what happened was my wife and I were at the beach and I'm in maybe four foot five foot water, I drop my phone into mm-hmm. and I'm like, alright, great. So we get back to the hotel, I say, Hey, do you have a bag of rice? So I'm gonna dry it out. charge it up and go from there. And they did. And it was working, except then when I tried to plug it in, there's a little grain of salt, or not salt sand that got stuck in there and outside to take it over while they were playing with it.

I was playing with these and I'm like, oh yeah, I gotta get these. And yeah, when you try 'em on, they're, they really are fantastic. They listen, they

Gordon Firemark: sound good, they feel comfortable, and you get the Bluetooth and the noise canceling. I do have noise canceling headphones that I spent a little more money on, but I don't use some for this kind of,

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: I, I, it's just less flyers in my.

Visual, which is what I prefer. But of course if you look at my desk, you'll see a lot of waters. So tell us what else you got back there. Cause I see a light in the back that says that you're on air. I'm curious about that. I see all these different little products that come out saying, Hey, you're on air or in a meeting

Gordon Firemark:

Yeah. So in my background, I've got. A handful of lighting and actually my chin, my lights changed, so I'm gonna put turn the shelf lights back on. Okay. But that's really just about set, set decoration. The sign that you see that says Live on air, used to be on the outside of my office door. Okay. To tell the kids, Hey, shut up.

I'm recording. I now have a different sign for that. So I thought that'd be cool to have that background. Yep. And I've got a bookshelf with some l e d strips behind it. And no, just to decorate nothing. Exceptional stuff I got on Amazon, stuff I find out on the out there. And it really is purely aesthetic.

And uh, the other thing that you see behind me on the wall is the octagonal hexagonal panels. Those are three quarter inch felt panels that help to deaden the sound in the room because I am in what is essentially, 10 by 10 cube, that means lots of echo and stuff like that. Sure. I've got a felt desk mat down under my keyboard and I try to get nice and close on the microphone so you're not hearing any room echo.

But that helps deaden things as well. And carpets and window blinds and all those kinds of things help.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Excellent. Is there any other piece of tech you'd like to share with us?

Gordon Firemark: the lights that I'm using on my video right now are El Gado Key Lights. Okay. And they mount to the desk and their flat panel.

I used to have these big soft boxes and whatnot all over here, and this just makes it much easier. I'm using a sit stand desk from okay. Flexi spot. So I'm standing right now, but when I'm doing my law work, I'm sitting and what else? No, I actually get a printer. Yeah, I u I've used an old brother, laser something or other, just a wireless printer here for the house and, and I do have a scanner also.

I love my Fujitsu scansnap

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: I, I, it's all lawyer's mainstay, especially if you're a solo or small practitioner. I've got one right over there. And the one thing we haven't mentioned, Hmm, you're phone.

Gordon Firemark: I'm an iPhone guy. Okay. And which iPhone do you have? So I have the 13 max or whatever it is. Okay. Yeah, Pro Max?

Yeah, I think so. Mainly went to get that because my oldest son, who's 14, he needed a phone last Christmas, and so I thought, well, I'll get him, I'll give him the old one. Get the new one for myself. And for me it's a business tool. I also have an iPad. I have an iPad Pro that I use with the pen, and I take all my notes and things like that in there.

So it's just right in the system automatically.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Now is your, do you have the M one or the M two chip? I'm on the M one chip. Okay. And same here. Same here. Just I, they came out with the M two chip, I believe. Just recently,

Gordon Firemark: within the last four or five months, I think. Yeah, I hear great things about it, but I also don't think that I need the upgrade urgently.

Agreed.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Agreed. No, I, I agree. I absolutely, like for instance, I have the max with the M one Ultra. Oh, nice. And even though they're supposed to be coming out with the M two soon, I don't feel the need and the specs that I'm seeing, I don't see the name that's comparable with you have with your iPads, any other device.

Pretty much just skip the M two if you have an M one. Yeah. Unless you just really need the processing, but, well, since

Gordon Firemark: we're talking about Max a little more, if you don't mind, I'll jump in please. Just a little tip I got, I just happened to be my MacBook Pro that I take with me when I go to teach my class and those kinds of things.

It's a 2017 model, 13 Mac Pro. . And so it's still on the Intel chip, but the battery started giving me an error message saying, Hey, service recommended or whatever. So I took it into the Apple Store just last week. And unfortunately it's not bad enough that they'll replace it for free. Right? So I have, so I'm gonna wait it out.

But while I was talking to the guy, he, I was looking at him, said, should I just buy a new MacBook Pro? He says, no. Get an air and we got into this whole conversation about it and if you look at the specs of the MacBook Pro M one and the equivalent chip in the air, it's so close that I said, so what's the difference?

He says, about 400 bucks. He could not point me to a technical difference between these two machines and

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: that makes sense. Except for me, I have a MacBook Pro 16 inch as you get into the

Gordon Firemark: larger screens and the more ports and things like that, but Right.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: It's not an issue so much of ports. It's an issue of screen and real estate.

Mm-hmm. . When I'm mobile, I need that real estate usually, even though I ha I can use my iPad as an ex, as a second screen when I'm on the road.

Gordon Firemark: Yeah. And I do that. I actually have a second flat screen that I can bring with me for if I need it. But most of the time when I'm teaching, I'm hooking up to the big screen in the classroom.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Wait, you're not using your iPad as a second screen sometimes. . Okay. Or isn't it a, it's a third screen. You give the flat panel and

Gordon Firemark: Yeah, sometimes I do that. It really depends. Often what I do is I'll hook up the laptop to the big screen or the projector. Mm-hmm. in the room. Mm-hmm. , and I'll use the iPad as a remote for my keynote presentation.

Gotcha, gotcha. Cool. And that's a good idea. That way I can walk around the room and interact with the students a little more. And I think they probably hate it, but it

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: depends on how old the students are. , is it college or high school, or it's college undergrads. . Yeah. I'm not as bad as high school students.

I think they would really hit it. But yeah. You know, college students, hopefully they're a little bit, hopefully they're a little bit more mature. Can't guarantee that. Mm-hmm. . But, but tell, let's get into the questions.

Question #1: What are the top three reasons a lawyer would want to start a podcast?

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Okay. What are the top three reasons a lawyer would wanna start a podcast?

Gordon Firemark: I will say that I think that podcasting is easier than blogging in the sense that you can be conversational.

Mm-hmm. , you don't have all, every word that goes on the page, and it doesn't have to just be, you know, we write in a sort of legalistic way, and I think that the voice that we capture of ourselves when. Recording is more congenial, so it's friendlier, it's just easier to connect with the audience. You'd still probably put an outline together and a lot of the same things you do with blogging and, but then you can take the transcript and post it to a blog or mm-hmm.

exert and those kinds of things. Second reason I would say podcasting is great, is. , it establishes you as the expert in the field that you're talking about. Even when you're interviewing a guest, their expertise rubs off on you, the interviewer. And so it's a great way to, to project a kind of credibility, to not project, develop a kind of credibility.

Mm-hmm. And when you have that regular content coming out on your blog or on your website and on the podcast and maybe on YouTube and stuff, when people go Google your name, they're gonna find all that stuff and see that you're an expert on these kinds of things. The third thing, and this is one that I don't think a lot of people think about, is when you have a podcast and you interview guests who are in your sort of target client base, right?

Right. Community, it's an, you don't need a pretense for calling them and, and asking them to have a conversation that can lead to that. No trust that gets built automatically and organically when you allow them to talk about themselves and the things they care about. Which after all is themselves . So people love to be asked questions about what they do, and of course, yeah.

Yeah.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Pardon the interruption. I hope you're enjoying this episode. Consider sharing this show with others and please leave us a review on Apple Podcast or wherever you get your download feds. If you're listening directly from our blog, consider buying us a cup of coffee or two from the link on our blog to help the defray some of the production costs.

Thanks again and enjoy.

And I remember when I started off as a lawyer looking for my first job, I did a lot of information interviews. Yeah. Cause I'd say you wanna learn about what you do cuz it's what I want to do. And then of course I'll say, oh yeah, I'm happy to talk about myself. And then hopefully that will lead maybe to some direction of trying to find the next job or a job.

Yeah, but actually I want,

Gordon Firemark: it's, it's a networking kind of intro. Yep.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Yep. That's great. And, and I wanted to backtrack a little bit, be anecdotal about first two answers, because when I started the blog, in a sense I had no idea what I was doing and I knew what I wanted to do, but at the same time, I'm also working full-time and I found that getting as many entries on the blog was, it was slower and harder, the amount and quality I wanted to do.

So at the same time, I heard about this thing called podcasting, and I started doing that. And I agree with you, the podcasting is easier and it's a little bit more fun because you're not, you're not so scripted. You get to talk to interesting people. You get to share what you know, you get to hear about new things.

I've learned something new today. I've learned new things in all the different podcasts I've done. I'm sure some of my listeners may be a little tired of listening to some of my same answers again. , for instance. Um, I know you're a Big Mac guy and if I mentioned this to you at Pod Fest, forgive me for repeating this, but check out Mac Power Users podcast.

Oh, yeah.

Gordon Firemark: David's spot. Yeah. I've actually, David and I have talked and I've had him on a show I had a while back about podcasting lawyers. Okay. And,

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: and, and he quit. being a lawyer. He's full steam on Max Sparky and his podcast. Exactly. He, he, I inspired to be him. But going back to your second answer, becoming the expert in the area, if I remember the exact answer you gave, I've been getting calls from journalists and you know, they're, asking me about this regarding technology and law and this and this and that, so to speak, and that's getting my name out in a different way.

Granted, it's not the focus of my law practice, which is fun. Which sort of goes in your third answer because I'm not doing this to enhance the law practice. I'm doing this out of sense of finding enjoyment. Yeah. I get a lot of, kicks out of. Playing with technology and trying to figure out how to utilize it so that work and law can be easier.

Question #2: What are the top three legal issues lawyers should be concerned with when doing a podcast?

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Let's move on to the second question. What are the top three legal issues lawyers should be concerned when doing a podcast? And we talked off Mike about whether it be release forms, references to your site and services, U P L.

Gordon Firemark: I think that the big issue that anybody who's podcasting, mm-hmm. needs to be sensitive to is intellectual property.

Because we all grew up with radio or other sources of music in our lives, and we want to have that vibe of a fully produced thing with music and all, all that, right? But the copyright law makes that, and frankly, just the right thing to do with respect to the owners of those copyrights makes that very hard to do in the podcasting space.

So we need to know and understand about how copyright law works when we quote from things, when we use other people's stuff essentially. And so intellectual property, legal issues. Can rear their ugly head pretty easily in the podcasting space. I don't know that U P L is a big concern, but I think that lawyer advertising can be okay if you are using a podcast to promote your business, your practice, right?

Different states have different rules about what's okay and what's not. Now. I think that if you're doing a pod, even if you're talking about your field of law, , which may be interesting to some and boring to others if you're giving generalized information. I don't see it as very different from what you would be doing if you wrote a book.

Okay. You know, if each episode is like a chapter of a book that you're talking about, a particular area or some case studies or something like that, I don't think that crosses the line into commercial speech. Until you go on and say, and if you have this problem, call me at five fifty five, whatever. And so, uh, you just need to be conscious and aware of what the lawyer advertising rules in your community.

If you're doing a substantive legal story here, legal podcasting. So

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: podcasting has no boundaries. It's the internet. It's worldwide. Yeah. So if I'm Joe Schmo talking about a personal injury case, and I could be your personal injury. Yeah, and I live work in practice in state A, but state B next door says, Hey, you're encroaching and advertising in our state, and you're not following our rules.

We're going to discipline you. Even though the lawyer in state A has no business. Mm-hmm. the state. Yeah, I think they're, so were you concerned about that? Because I've seen some states say, Hey, you've been playing in our ponds and we don't like it, even though you're not really playing in their pond.

Gordon Firemark: I think that some of those issues have been settled with television advertising, where the TV signal from a station in Arkansas crosses into Texas.

Does Texas get to regulate that lawyer merely because that ad happens to bleed in? I don't think so. I think also here in the US we're fortunate that we have a First Amendment freedom of speech, right? And if what we're creating is educational, informative, political, artistic kind of speech rather than purely commercial.

We have very strong protections. It's when it crosses into that commercial arena that the state has a little more interest in regulating. I'm not too concerned about that territorial boundaries issue as much as the state that has jurisdiction over you. Certainly ma. And I think another big concern would frankly just be, and I think most of us are tuned in enough to know we're not giving direct specific legal advice on our show.

We are not answering a question directly responsive to that question on some of my live streams and things. I will take a question from the audience and generic it down, right? Had a question about X, Y, Z and how long copyrights last, and then I can answer the question without responding to their particular legal need.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: So let's pause it for a second cuz you touch on. a follow up question I had. Yeah. So someone from state, you're in state A, someone from state B heard you about copyright law, thought, oh my god, this guy's fantastic. I've gotta hire him. And you do all your retainer and your engagement letters, all state and based and state A.

Yeah. But state B said, Hey, hold on a second. You're advertising to residents in our state, so we don't like the way you're doing it. We're going to investigate you, sanction you. . See what I'm getting at? Yeah, I do.

Gordon Firemark: I do. I think it calls to mind actually, international shoe to talk about jurisdictional questions.

Do you really have minimum contacts with that other state merely by virtue of your podcast being listenable there? I don't think so. I haven't researched it specifically, but that's a real question. Now, if you take the. From that other, that's where you're violating law. That's where you're U P L. I think if you take the

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: anonymous,

Gordon Firemark: like at other states, if I'm located in California and someone from Nebraska hires me, right.

And I'm not licensed in Nebraska unless there's a really solid nexus between the legal matter and the state that I'm in. Right. I think I am practicing without a license in the other

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: state. Right. But I, in my hypothetical, whatever the issue was that Yeah, the person from state B hired you from deals in state.

Oh yeah.

Gordon Firemark: If you've been in an accident in California, come hire me. And then someone from Nevada comes and hires me. Yeah. But it, yeah, I probably wouldn't take out an ad in Nevada papers. .

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Yeah, no, that makes sense. That makes sense. So what about release forms, Michael? This

Gordon Firemark: is a crusade that I've been on . I think that everybody who interviews guests on their podcast would use some kind of a written, or at least an online release form of some sort that captures.

Consent to the recording. Whether you're in a one-party recording consent date, or, or two, two-party or whatever, capture that consent. And also ex uh, e explain the scope of what's going to be done with this recording so there can be no misunderstandings. When you later decide to use the transcript and turn it into a book or, or publish a greatest hits episode or something like that, your guest shouldn't be in a position to come at you later and say, Not what we agreed.

Take it down. Now that doesn't say you, if the guest has a good reason why it's gonna hurt them, their job, they're gonna lose their job or something. You, you certainly can, you have a flexibility, but that should be your decision, not the guest's decision. So consent and also ownership of copyright is a, is an interesting area here.

When two or more people get together to create something as a single unitary whole, like a podcast episode. Under the law as it stands without any specific intention. Otherwise, they're gonna look like joint authors and therefore joint owners of the copyright with joint rights to exploit. But also it clouds the sort of chain of title.

Now, that's not a big issue most of the time, but every once in a while someone's gonna take their show and go exclusive on Spotify, and then they need to be able to show they've got ownership of all those episode. Oh, okay. Okay. If you're even thinking about positioning to make a sale or join a network or something like that, getting those ducks in a row is important.

And we, lawyers do, as I say, don't do it. Not as I do in this one, but we think we know. But it's always someone comes out of the woodwork when you least expect it. And if you have to take an episode down and you've got a sponsor on that episode, now you just breached your contract with your sponsor so it can

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: really.

How long does a sponsorship of a particular episode pass?

Gordon Firemark: I think that's a little like asking how long is a piece of string, right? How long is that episode gonna live? I think you know it. It's a bigger issue, of course, if the takedown happens within two or three months after the episode than if it's two or three years later.

But still, I think the implication, at least for host Red Ads and things like that, is that they stay with the episode for the life of the

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: podcast. Fair enough? I tell yes, as I've told you, or will tell you that once the episode's released, you're welcome to use it for your own PR media necessities. , yeah.

Kind of thing. I've just never thought that someone would come back and say, oh, take that down. Now, obviously if it was wrong or something came out bad, I would fix it or take it down, of course. But I guess how do you approach someone who's doing, in a sense, to be blank? You're doing me a favor of coming on, and I greatly appreciate it, but, but by the way, Gordon, I know you're helping me here and you're doing me a favor, but do you mind signing.

Gordon Firemark: It's a two-way street. Remember, I'm also getting access to your platform and your audience, so I wouldn't be doing it if there wasn't a little bit of self-interest involved. Maybe it, it's

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: just a, like a sound. No, wait, wait. You're self interested here. Oh, no. . Oh,

Gordon Firemark: no. I just like the sound of my own voice and playing with my toys.

But the way I, and I don't have guests on my show very often, but the way I do it and the way I recommend others to do it is when they book the appointment on the scheduling calendar. You, I use Acuity scheduling. There's right Calendly and there's a bunch of these others out there. I actually have the text of my release form on that questionnaire that they answer.

And the checkbox, do you agree to the above terms and conditions? They click it and we're good to go. And the law's pretty clear that click wrap agreements like that are valid and enforceable. And if nothing else, it just puts them on Notice that you're. being serious about this thing. Would I want to necessarily send them a PDF and say, Hey, print this, sign it and fax it back to me, or something crazy.

It gets unwieldy. You could even do it orally if you have the script down and you can read it. You just want that manifestation of the intent to be bound by these terms. Right. And it can be done conversationally, and I think it does project a kind of professionalism.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: So what would you advise? Other podcasters, and perhaps myself included, that, Hey, we have so many episodes in the camp, but we never got that release.

Can we go back? Yeah. And somehow say, Hey, do you mind releasing this?

Gordon Firemark: That's a great question. I think I probably wouldn't, if it was myself, I don't think I would bother going back. I would just clean up my act going forward, and hopefully that's not, if I have a. Couple of episodes that are cornerstone content, right?

I'm might, or if I go and I'm planning to repurpose that content for something, put it inside an online course or write a book or something, then I would go back. But no ju, once it's out there and you haven't had any problems, that's a sleeping dog you'll let lie.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Okay, that is, this is all very good to know.

And, these are things that would be great to hear at a podcasting conference, you think? Yes. , and unless I missed that particular session at the podcasting festival that you and I went to and that, I think that would be like here is a session on all the stuff you need to be considering legally when doing a podcast.

Now if I've forgotten and you did it and I missed it, I apologize.

Gordon Firemark: No. This year my topic at Pod Fest was a little narrower. I covered one aspect of that, and it does cover the release, but my topic was about why you need a podcast prenup. Right. I'm not talking about when you're working with co-producers.

Co-hosts. Yep. Yep. Anybody else? Including guests coming on your show? I'm talking about the pitfalls and the solutions to dealing with.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: And of course. And now of course I do remember I did see it cuz you also at the, at pod Fest, which is the podcasting conference that you and I both met at. Yeah, last October.

No,

Gordon Firemark: just in January. January. Okay. ,

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: I, I'm going to a lot of conference. In the last year at the, at Pod Fest, you also had a link to a bunch of release form. Yeah, if I recall correctly, and maybe it'd be nice enough to share that with our listeners, for me to put in our show notes, but that, that'll, I'll leave to you.

Gordon Firemark: No, I'd be delighted. I, the, I've, as I said, this is my crusade. I want people using this. I've provided a free podcast guest release form free, and you have to give me your email address, but then I'm gonna send you this form. Go to podcast release.com. Block the form, download the zip file, and o open it up and you.

The form in a couple of different

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: formats. I will be absolutely sure to put that in the show notes and hopefully you'll get some more emails including mine. Yeah. Okay.

Question 3: What are your top three pieces of hardware or software that you use to make your podcast recordings great?

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: So for our last question, what are your top three favorite pieces of technology? Well, it's hardware or software that you use to make your podcast recordings Great.

And I know we got number one as being the mic and the mixer.

Gordon Firemark: Yeah, those are certainly on the top of my list. A Mac has a fantastic tool. It. It does everything I need it to do and much, much more. And so I, I love my Mac mini. You've got a Mac studio? Same basic. I've got a little envy now, but I'd say that's on my list.

And then software. Interesting.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: That's a hard, well, so hold, I'm gonna ask you to pause that for just a second. So let's go back to the Mac Mini for a second. Sure. So you have a mixer? Mm-hmm. that does everything internally. So where do you use the Mac Mini for then?

Gordon Firemark: The Mac Mini is the hub of the communications with the outside world.

Right now, I'm not going through that roader at all. You're getting direct through the Mac, through the Zoom call, and when I do a call with my co-host, that's a Skype call. We're using Skype. We've been using it for 14 years and not gonna change it if it works. We've been doing a Skype call. The Skype call comes out of the Mac into the roader and.

Records there and the Mac is where I do what little editing I do and create the show notes and upload everything and, and these days I'm doing a lot of video live streaming as well. Okay. I'll say, I think that's the answer to my third technology item is the software that I use for live streaming is called E Cam Live.

And okay. It is a beautiful piece of software that allows me to create. Basically a television show. Oh, or a livestream. Multiple cameras overlays. Lower third things that slide in video, play a video, presentations, whatever, right here on my Mac with just a few keystrokes. And boy, that technology is something else.

When I was in school studying radio, TV, and film production, it was a whole room full of gear that you needed to do what you can now do from your desktop with. Computer and a mouse.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Let's take the, uh, in a different direction for just a second. You talked about what you do for video. What do you think is the best piece of software to use for podcasting when the two people are not in the same room?

Gordon Firemark: I think from a software point of view, uh, it's a, I'm gonna say riverside.fm is the tool of choice for a lot of podcasters that a, it's the connectivity between two people records on both ends simultaneously. Mm-hmm. , if you and I were talking over River. I'd be making a recording. You'd be making a recording when we're done.

It's gonna upload them, merge them, and give the host of the show both a merged mixed file as well as the individual audio files and the video so you can cut audio and vi and do your editing and mixing and all the after the fact if you want. But if you get a good quality recording, you're just done with it.

Not put like you do with the Zoom. So it

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: seems like it has a lot of features to it. Yeah. Say compared to Zoom and Skype, why would I want that? Instead?

Gordon Firemark: The sound quality from these tools like Riverside is in a class of these tools. There's a couple of others out there that do the same thing. Riverside's the top of mind for me these days.

I think that's the quality of the sound is far superior to what you get on a Zoom call or a Skype call. Uh, certainly without any extra tinkering. I, I did a lot of tinkering with the Skype call, so I'm feeling pretty good about that and not gonna make any drastic changes, but that's, and it's much easier for the guest not to have to download additional software, not to have to tinker with things.

And on their end to get this to happen, you just load up a link in a browser and you're off to the races and you're talking about Riverside

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: FM

Gordon Firemark: Riverside. Yeah. It's okay. You sign up, you get an account, you send the. Guest a link and bang, they show up in your little studio on Riverside and you're good to go.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: So basically what I'm hearing is that with Riverside's A versus Zoom and Skype is that you get a better sound quality. You have a lot of options when it comes to your video, and also you get individual recordings in addition to a combined recording with the Riverside versus the Zoom. Which with Zoom either I can keep the entire file, the recording, or I can up keep it uploaded on the cloud.

And I'm not sure how Skype works. I'm assuming this allows you to download.

Gordon Firemark: Or record. Yeah, Skype doesn't actually do any recording. That's something that's happening on my end when we do this.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Oh, okay. So then it seems like then it would be, you can't do use Skype then for podcast recording, but you could use Zoom for podcast recording.

I'm sorry, you should Can't use Skype without some sort of additional hardware. Yeah.

Gordon Firemark: Or software.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Yeah. Okay. Okay, I got it. So Skype is out for the newbie, but Zoom would be okay. And then if you wanna graduate, perhaps Riverside fm,

I greatly appreciate your thoughts and more importantly, I appreciate you being on here today.

Where You Can Find Gordon!

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Please tell us where people can find you.

Gordon Firemark: Michael, it's been a real pleasure. Best way to find me is my name, Gordon Firemark dot com. We'll get you to the website that has all of my sort of courses and information products and firemark.com is the law practice blog. Slash podcast. All right. And the name of my main podcast is called Entertainment Law Update, and you can find that on most podcast platforms.

Michael D.J. Eisenberg: And I will be sure to have all of that in the show notes. And again, I want to thank you for being on. Thank you. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you for joining me on this episode of the Tech Savvy Lawyer Page podcast. Our next episode will be posted in about two weeks. If you have any ideas about a future episode, please contact me at Michael DJ at the Tech Savvy lawyer.page.

Have a great day and happy lawyering!